Bob- Just tried to read your link. Thanks anyway, but if the best way to understand the Bible's 'message from God' is an article that spends the first few paragraphs telling the reader that they won't be able to understand the concept that he can't explain fully anyway, I get the feeling that it's either nonsense or God must enjoy confusing people. The illustration he uses in relation to the trinity in the Bible, of not being able to explain the concept of man to a worm seems, to be polite, a little silly. After all, when was the last time that you or anyone you knew wrote a book explaining mankind, before giving it to a worm? It would be a waste of time! My brain packed up and went home when I read this part.. http://bible.org/article/trinity-triunity-god "The three Persons are the same in substance, i.e., in essence or in their essential nature, but distinct in subsistence which describes God’s mode or quality of existence in three Persons. By mode of existence we do not mean one God acting in three different ways, but one Divine Being existing in three distinct Persons within one Divine Substance or Essence. Again, this is not exactly three individuals as we think of three personal individuals, but one Divine Being who acts and thinks as one within a three-fold personality. This is incomprehensible to our finite and limited minds, but it is the teaching of the Scripture. “In the Being of God there are not three individuals, but only three personal self distinctions within the one Divine Essence.” 15"
The Quiet One
JoinedPosts by The Quiet One
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163
The Trinity
by The Quiet One ini have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.
what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?
i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?
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163
The Trinity
by The Quiet One ini have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.
what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?
i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?
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The Quiet One
Wontleave- Thank you! I feel like every time I try to ask for scriptural proof of the Holy Spirit being worshipped or even up there with Jesus/Jehovah I get diverted off by someone. From the beginning of the thread I've said that I'm not sure about whether Jesus should be worshipped or not, but I don't see where the 'third leg of the tripod', so to speak, fits into the God of the Bible, or even why it has to. I got so wrapped up in debating that I had forgotten the original purpose of the thread..
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163
The Trinity
by The Quiet One ini have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.
what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?
i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?
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The Quiet One
I'm not sure. Stephen clearly prayed to Jesus when he was being stoned to death, yet Jesus told his disciples to pray to the Father.. I don't pretend to be a scholar or to know much about anything, I just don't see the Trinity as gelling with the whole Bible, or even making much sense, so I'm just trying to weigh it all up by criticising things I don't agree with at the moment.
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163
The Trinity
by The Quiet One ini have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.
what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?
i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?
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The Quiet One
*sorry, I wrote this first part when you were going off on predestination!*This thread is about the Trinity, if you don't mind. (not meaning to be rude, just getting off topic a little, that's all). I've not even had my question regarding why the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned as being prayed to in the Bible answered, or why it wasn't mentioned in the visions of Revelation. As for Jesus HAVING TO BE either the Almighty or a false god, consider this reasoning... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100622073448AA0G1tQ "the Bible clearly shows that others can *PROPERLY* be called"God." Since the question infers that the Bible only mentions other Gods who are "false" it misleads its hearers. While today we only use the term "God" for the Almighty God, this was not the case in Bible times. Many are RIGHTLY called QEOS in the scriptures. Jehovah himself applied the term to Moses, other humans and angels (Ex.4:16; 7:1; Ps.8:5; 82:1,6; 136:2; 138:1; Jn.10:34). Was Moses a "true God"or a "false God"?! These individuals are not down on the same level as false gods who are called God, nor up on the same level as The Almighty God. This is because the sense of "god" is relative. Humans such as Moses and angels are correctly called"god," but they still have Jehovah God over them." "It is Jesus himself who says that he is not The True God. The Greek grammar of Jn 17:3 is very clear. The distinction between the "only true God" AND Jesus as "the one who [God] sent" explicitly excludes Jesus from being "The True God" mentioned here. We have then two separate individuals, and the title "only true God" is being applied only to the God and Father of Jesus Christ. This same demarcation between the Father as the only true God and Jesus is repeatedly made in Scripture (1Thes. 1:9, 10; 1Cor.8:6)."
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163
The Trinity
by The Quiet One ini have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.
what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?
i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?
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The Quiet One
Bob- Doesn't the word exalted indicate that he wasn't always equal? I thought that you believed that Jesus and Jehovah are the same. Why would he have to exalt himself, or sit at his own right hand as in psalm 110:1?
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Undercover Brother Campaign- have you received your invite?
by stuckinamovement inwithout specifics being mentioned as to what it is......(to avoid tipping off certain lurkers).. how many people know about the upcoming summer long campaign?
please use this thread to confirm receipt of your campaign invitation.
take care.
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The Quiet One
Send me a pm and count me in, please. I might have a low post count but you should be able to tell I'm genuine.
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163
The Trinity
by The Quiet One ini have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.
what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?
i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?
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The Quiet One
This scripture shows me that Jesus is Mighty, no mention of him being Almighty. And that he's a prince, not a King. And that if you shut your Bible, stick your fingers in your ears and sing lalala, you can ignore any other parts of it that might cause confusion. *edit* Just to be awkward, though, here's an interesting argument I found. Don't think that I agree with the logic he uses on this page, but at least its an alternative view... http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/mighty.htm FATHER = The Hebrew word is 'ab (OT: 1) and in this context it is a noun; Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon definitions for this word are as follows: 'ab -- OT: 1 1) The father of an individual 2) Used of God as Father of His people 3) The head or the founder of a household, a group, a family, or a clan 4) An ancestor 5) An originator or patron of a class, profession, or art 6) Used of a producer, a generator (figuratively) 7) Used of benevolence and of protection (figuratively) 8) Used as a term of respect and honor 9) A ruler or a chief (specifically) [6] I prefer #9 because it is consistent with the rest of the verse; Isaiah 9:6 seems to portray the Messiah as an authoritative ruler that has been delegated some serious decision making power. By combining the two nouns used for everlasting Father and using the context of Isaiah 9:7b which reads, “and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever, ” we see Jesus sits on David’s throne at a certain point in time, and from that point onward establishes justice forever (Peremptory Terminus). EVERLASTING FATHER = The literal meaning would be properly rendered as, “The ruler with authority to pass on or deny access to eternal life.”
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163
The Trinity
by The Quiet One ini have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.
what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?
i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?
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163
The Trinity
by The Quiet One ini have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.
what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?
i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?
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The Quiet One
Bob- I must not have been clear, for which I apologise. I am Agnostic in the sense that I don't believe that I can know God, but I'm open minded enough to still discuss the meaning of the Bible, and open minded enough to test out what people say without dismissing it. As much as I don't think I'll ever fully know anything about God, I also realise that I could be wrong about even that, and I'd like to find out if the Bible can teach me anything at all. Or if there is a consistent set of evidence-based beliefs that will at least make something in life make sense. In other words, I think I might be an agnostic, but I don't really know :)
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163
The Trinity
by The Quiet One ini have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.
what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?
i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?
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The Quiet One
New International Version (©1984) "Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them." New Living Translation (©2007) "Even some men from your own group will rise up and distort the truth in order to draw a following." English Standard Version (©2001) "and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them." Just pointing out that even the Nicene Creed itself may have been a distorting of the 'truth'. Jesus' teachings were essentially clear and simple, even the 'uneducated' people understood him and marvelled at his words. I wonder if a trinitarian could approach an average person on the street and explain even the most basic version of the trinity doctrine? And can anyone point out anywhere in the Bible that the Holy Spirit receives worship as a God? Thanks.